Do Catholics Worship Mary?
Interesting question came up in the meta on the article below. Now, Catholics insist they don't worship Mary, and David says we are obliged to take them at their word. But it's reasonable to ask if words and actions are consistent. Part of the problem may be that Catholics and Protestants understand the word worship differently. But from the perspective of a Biblical Christian, it looks like worship.
I've taken the following examples from this document, written by an ex-Nun. She comments -
I visited shrines that honor Mary. I had beautiful statues of Mary. I attended special services where we prayed to Mary and recited a litany of titles honoring her. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of visiting Lourdes and Fatima. I participated in processions honoring Mary. A statue of Mary was put on a platform that was decorated with flowers. There were poles on the platform, so that men could carry it. The men walked through the streets, carrying the statue on the platform. We walked behind the statue, singing songs in Mary's honor.
Was this worship? At the time, that question never occurred to me. Now, looking back on what I did, I believe that it was.
Later on, she shares the words of a popular prayer to Mary -
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
The Bible reserves this sort of language for God alone. To give what is due to God to another is idolatry, it is false worship. The term "Maryolatry" seems an appropriate label for the Catholic practices...
19 comments:
You call Jesus "Queen"? Maybe you have turned around on the issue of homosexuality!
If it was simply Catholics refuting the accusation (which they do time after time after time) then you might have a point. But that Catholics don't worship Mary is testified to several times in the CCC, an authoritative teaching text!
I think the problem is that Protestants seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that one can have deep reverence for someone without equating them to God.
David: no, the problem is that Roman Catholics say they don't worship Mary, but then the words and actions they use in relation to her end up being almost indistinguishable from what Protestants would regards as worship. Which is what Craig was saying, if you read his post.
A good example of the sort of thing that causes Protestants deep discomfort is Pope JP II's prayer to Mary at the "Act of Entrustment" in 1981. See this post on my blog from a couple of years ago, where I quote the prayer at length.
Frankly, explanations about "latria" and "dulia" and "hyperdulia" read to Protestant eyes like special pleading, when set against prayers like that, or those cited by Craig in his post.
Deuteronomy 18:9 has "...There shall not be found among you...a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord..."
I think that verse applies in the case of praying to Mary.
Deuteronomy 18:9 has "...There shall not be found among you...a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord..."
I think that verse applies in the case of praying to Mary.
My brief answer to the titular question, Craig, would be "Duh."
Slightly longer —
There are basically two kinds of people in the world on this subject:
1. Those who acknowledge that Roman Catholics worship Mary; and
2. Roman Catholics.
It's why I respect JW's more than I do Mormons and Roman Catholics. If you ask a JW whether he believes in the Trinity, he'll give you a flat "No." He won't say, "Well, yes, you see, in this very subtle and nuanced way, which it will take me twelve years to explain...."
rofl Dan!
David, I didn't call Mary "Queen", I quoted a common prayer to her, that calls her "Queen". In your haste to comment, I wonder if you perhaps only skimmed my post?
Good point DavidP - worth making twice!
There's no doubt, *some* Catholics worship Mary.
Other Catholics, however, were not entirely happy with some aspects of JP2's Marian devotion...
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..
And I think praying to someone when they are dead, and calling them 'Queen' definately goes beyond 'deep reverance', and into worship.
There are many "reconstructionists," "reductionists" and "revisionists" around today who want to remove Mary's images from churches. There are "purists" who insist that Marian devotion should be strictly separated from the Mass. There are even liturgical "dictators" who prohibit the recitation of the rosary during exposition of the Blessed Sacrament as if this Christ-centered Marian devotion so dear to the faithful was an affront to the Son of Mary.
From Mary's Presence in the Mass by Msgr. Arthur B. Calkins.
Ben McLaughlin — exactly. Sometimes, in conversation with non-candid Romanists (almost a tautology), I've said, "Right: you don't pray to dead people. You just close your eyes and beam out thoughts to people who have stopped breathing and circulating blood, attributing to them the ability to hear and respond to a vast amount of similarly beamed-out thoughts. All at the same time. Like God does. But you don't pray to dead people!"
djp: classic!
Interested though - do they ever answer:
"yes Mary did die, but she's not dead at the moment. Mary, like all saints, has been resurrected?"
Actually, what is the Catholic view of the dead's resurrection state?
Present?
Future?
Or in between (i.e. does purgatory come into it?)
I amazed that none of you can actually see the perversity and obscurantism of what you are saying. To believe that you are the only group to believe the truth is one thing, but it's a whole new level of arrogance to tell other people what they themselves believe.
Imagine if I made the accusation against you that even though you say you believe in grace alone, in truth you promoted works-based righteousness. I explain the reasons that I regard this as your authentic position. You say that I've misunderstood what you are teaching. I counter by saying that you misunderstand your own teaching and that your teaching is actually works-based righteousness. I'm not going to hear another word from you. I know what you believe better than you do, even though you've studied this stuff at theological college and studied the catechisms. End of story.
If you wanted to know why there is so little respect for Sydney Anglicans and for Calvinists in general, this thread would be a good starting point.
David, it is perfectly reasonable to examine whether someones action are consistent with their words. People involved in unrepentant sin rarely acknowledge they are sinning. So it doesn't surprise me at all that catholics deny they are committing idolatry.
If you wanted to know why there is so little respect for Sydney Anglicans and for Calvinists in general...
In your circles, perhaps.
In my experience, a disrespectful attitude often says as much about the person doing the disrespecting, as anything else. Hopefully us Sydney Anglicans, and Calvinists in general, can show more respect in return than you are able to muster...
David, it is perfectly reasonable to examine whether someones action are consistent with their words. People involved in unrepentant sin rarely acknowledge they are sinning. So it doesn't surprise me at all that catholics deny they are committing idolatry.
And nor does it surprise me that you'd deny that you believe works-based righteousness despite the fact that you're actually a legalist, but you do. It's not my fault that you don't understand your own beliefs or the concept of works.
If you wanted to know why there is so little respect for Sydney Anglicans and for Calvinists in general...
In your circles, perhaps.
Well, the most satisfying parts of my day was realising how many Catholics are on the streets, and then how empty St Andrew's Cathedral was at lunch time. It was a fairly stark comparison that said it all, really. The perspectives of your sect carry some degree of weight in your little clique, but the truth is that Calvinism and Calvinists are a complete irrelevance to the vast majority of the world.
In my experience, a disrespectful attitude often says as much about the person doing the disrespecting, as anything else. Hopefully us Sydney Anglicans, and Calvinists in general, can show more respect in return than you are able to
But the problem is that you already haven't, as I've demonstrated above.
Well, the most satisfying parts of my day was realising how many Catholics are on the streets, and then how empty St Andrew's Cathedral was at lunch time
If that was the most satisfying part of your day, it is pretty sad...
If that was the most satisfying part of your day, it is pretty sad...
Not really. Knowing that Sydney Anglicans are as about as insignificant and as intellectually respected as flat earthers to the vast majority of people was greatly encouraging to me.
When I was at boarding school, we had to (once a year for a few weeks) have nightly services (that went for 45 minutes) called... called something I don't know. The point is it was 45 minutes every single night for several weeks specifically worshipping Mary.
UnHoly Cthulu it was painful
Our Lord Jesus says that the word of the prophets is example for us. This being said, Jeremiah 14 explains what happened to God's people when they worshipped a queen in heaven. Jesus says to pray to the Father only, not Mary and the "saints". I am a cradle Catholic and I can tell you that I no longer pray to Mary. She is NOT our intecessor, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are. Mary said to listen to her Son, for He knows what to do.
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